here is the conversation:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Alex Kagioglu:
"I think there is a mix of intellectuals and not-so-intellectuals in the Darfur forum.
hint! Join the intellectuals!
I enjoyed other peoples' comments like you did.
There are other groups with intellectuals in Facebook.
I've seen one.
Not to say that I support that group any longer.
The majority of the posts were aggressive, and blaming.
..I'm rambling.
eh. bye."
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Me:
"Ad hominem abusive people, and no worries, i ramble when i talk to people way to much. I've actually counted the number of intelligent conversations I've actually had with people in my entire life and there was under 10 (7 to be exact, and 8 counting this one, haha). I feel like I am one of the only rational person in my whole town. See? I'm rambling to. Take it easy"
Alex Kagioglu:
"On a side note, I support your religious views.
As for the number of intelligent conversations you've had, You're not limited to talking to people in your town. You're connected to millions of people through the internet. (I know you know this, but I just like saying it.)
You can have an intelligent conversation with another person with very little effort.
I love the internet!"
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Me:
"But people steal my internets! (sorry, just had to say it, joke my friends have)
Like right now right? But you remind me of me for some reason.
Anyway, I love the internet too, yet i cannot find much discussion sites where people just talk about stuff such as this. Thanks also."
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Alex Kagioglu:
"Well, I guess we're in the same boat.
Millions of people to talk to.
Now we have to find who we're looking for.
It's funny you say that I remind you of you.
Your profile picture shows a decorative blanket.
I have one just like it.
I'll change my profile picture to that picture so that you can see what I mean.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Me:
"Oh sweet
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Alex Kagioglu:
"Yep"
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Alex Kagioglu:
"Check out what Sam Mintah said:
I believe the time is very suitable and appropriate for demonstration to let China know its inhuman action against the people of Tibet, and its support to a Government that kills women and children. People are dying senselessly in Sudan, and this Chinese government looks on unconcern. How many times have activists from different countries and walks of life tried to tell the Chinese government to stop trading and dealing with the Sudanese government. The Olympic games despite its peace oriented ideology presents a suitable time for us to present our concerns to the Chinese government since its going to reap the benefit of the games. Anyway small voice or action is needed to help the thousands of innocent people dying in Tibet, Sudan and other oppressed people around the globe."
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Me:
"Silly, whats your thoughts on this whole debate anyway? What side or you on?"
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Alex Kagioglu:
"You're about to read a lot. The below consists of separate subjects. The first part attempts to address your question. The second part is a realization that I had while trying to address your question. The first part is stale and uninteresting. You can skip it if you wish. The text that divides these two parts is:
"...(me thinking for several minutes)..."
The above text was written after everything else.
I'm trying to stop people from siding with anything.
I'll write more on that later.
Some people are encouraging extinguishing the flame.
Some people are discouraging extinguishing the flame.
Each of them explain why they say what they say.
Some of them share common explanations.
People in Darfur are being killed. Those killed share traits that can be recognized by their killers.
Darfur is not the only place where this happens. Darfur shares this with people in other places now and in the past.
Some people give the Olympics significance.
To some it is an occasion for peace or friendship.
To Some, the flame represents the Olympics.
I'm not sure whether things have any meaning.
I'll write more on that later.
During the Olympics, people from around the world gather to watch the athletes compete. The Olympics get hours of coverage each day that Olympic events are taking place.
Some people say that if they can interfere with the flame then they can gain media attention. They also say that this attention could raise awareness about the killings in Darfur.
There are other people trying to interfere with the flame. Some of these people state that they want to help people in Tibet.
China governs Tibet. There have been protests in Tibet. People were injured during the protests. Some people interfering with the flame state that they want people to know about the violence taking place in Tibet. Some of the people interfering with the flame state that they want the violence to stop.
...(me thinking for several minutes)...
okay.
you need observations to support any statement involving a cause and effect relationship.
The above argument goes all over the place. I cannot observe some of the things taking place. I'll have to rely on other people's observations in order to support my hypothesis.
speaking of which, I started out trying to justify a statement. I assumed this statement was true and tried to work backwards to support it. Then I tried writing in a style that didn't use words like: right, wrong, should, fair, and buzzwords with that are automatically associated with words like right and wrong.
This is incredibly difficult. I don't feel I'm getting very far. I haven't arrived at my conclusion yet.
So I scrapped the conclusion and opted for a hypothesis.
My hypothesis is that trying to extinguish the flame is counter productive.
My additional hypothesis is that more can be done for Darfur by doing something besides trying to extinguish the flame.
okay, back to the bit about observations.
Observations can be either accepted or denied. It is easier to deny others' observations than to deny your own. It is easier to accept your observations than to accept others'.
Observations are based on perceptions and are subject to error. This means that what you conclude by observing something can be wrong. Dually, you can be right about something without even have observing it.
One can never know what is really right or wrong because conclusions are based on observations.
However, things that don't exist in reality cannot be observed. This means that they are free from the inherent uncertainty of reality. For example: 2 + 2 = 4, and Triangles have three sides.
These statements are right.
The individual meanings of 2, +, =, and 4 agree with the statement 2+2=4. However, the meanings are made up. If one changes the meaning then the statement can become false. What if 4 came after 5. Then the true statement would be 2+2=5. Therefore 2+2=4 can be wrong. It all depends on the definitions you use.
Now try to apply 2+2=4 to real life.
Suppose you have 2 marbles in one bag and two in another. Suppose that you know this before hand. Now take one marble out of the left bag without looking. Put that marble into the right bag. The whole time you are moving the marble, you feel only a single marble in your grip. Suppose your sense of touch is infallible. Then you know for certain that you moved one marble from one bag to the other. You keep count while moving marbles from the left bag to the right bag. You stop when there are no more marbles in the left bag. You have now counted to 2. You knew before hand that there were two marbles in both bags. So this means that there should be 4 marbles in the right bag.
But, the only thing you observed was you touching one marble at a time, and possibly the sound a marble makes while landing in the bag. What if there were multiple bags? Was there anyone else possibly adding marbles to the right bag? It's possible for there not to be 4 marbles in the right bag.
This is less about Darfur now than it is about my own philosophy.
As far as the above goes, don't worry about the distinction between fiction and reality - although it is important.
The bit about arguments and conclusions depending on observations is what will apply to my next bit about Darfur.
I'm going to try to make a simple argument regarding my hypothesis. I will try to get rid of all irrelevant information, try to support my argument with observations that can be made by everyone everywhere. If people are able to observe my observations then my argument will be stronger.
This, I suppose, will take a while.
I'll have to get back to you with my argument."
Aquila,
2 comments:
Yo Aquila,
This is Alex - the guy in that message.
I feel like such a dick for not finishing my explanation. I totally forgot that I even had a conversation about Darfur.
I found this blog by googling myself. I will finish that explanation, but a little bit later. Thanks for calling the conversation interesting. It's always a plus to have your character validated by strangers. It's like a scientific approval on your philosophy.
Hehe. Thanks again.
Okay, so here is where I stand on the issue of Darfur.
Some of the people on that forum wanted to extinguish the Olympic Flame in the name of the cause of helping Darfur. Extinguishing the flame doesn't substantially hurt anyone. It would raise awareness of Darfur significantly. So based on this information so far it would seem like a good idea to extinguish the flame to raise awareness for Darfur, but here's my counterpoint.
The Olympics is about sporting competition among humans from many nations. The save Darfur cause is trying to raise awareness of genocide in Darfur. The two are not related. A few instances of things like extinguishing the flame are not harmful, but if things like that happen often enough, spectators and athletes will stop going to the Olympics. There are large events related to human rights (google human rights events 2011). The people at those events will be more receptive to the save Darfur message. So since the save Darfur people have a choice, I would say that for them to extinguish the Olympic Flame would be the wrong thing to do.
Post a Comment